Your chance to put your cheese questions to cheese experts Charlie Turnbull, Academy of Cheese Director and Trainer, Jamie Montgomery, legendary cheesemaker and Ruth Raskin of The Fine Cheese Co. Streamed live on YouTube.
Live Broadcast On: 09th May 2020
Episode Video Transcript
What am I done, I've not pressed the right button, Yes we're back hello everybody it's Tuesday night is Cheese Night, except that's not it's Saturday night this is the great British Cheese Weekender. This is our contribution to improving the lot of a lot of small cheese makers and generally promoting the fact that cheese is beautiful cheese is very beautiful and we know that the British cheese renaissance is something that kicked back to this sort of 1970s with the likes of Randolph Hodgson and Pattirick Rance who really developed the cheese in the UK from a very poor start that we were sitting in the 50s and 60s and created the cheeses that we have in the UK right now.
We have in the UK nearly 1,200 cheeses that's more than the French. They've got more cheese makers than us a lot of their cheese makers and a very unimaginative way or making the same cheese right whereas we in the UK have just done a proliferation of astonishing Jesus Italy which is why tonight we've got on a specialist Ruth Ruskin from the fine cheese company she knows so many of the cheese makers in the UK at the moment so we've got her so let's bring her in let's press the magic button come on Ruth come on down.
hey very well thank you thank you very much for joining us here is the weather as beautiful where are you tonight I am it's a little finished and hotel Abington I'm in the middle of nowhere it's very nice there's trouble out there I don't know what's going on but the middle of nowhere seems like the perfect so where do you spend your day sort of i'm assuming both perhaps so we have arbitrary moons just outside bars it's about 20 minutes they put six just near the end for near the Marshfield ice cream people exactly just didn't know no ice cream yes that's where we keep our cheese so that's where I'm based.
Okay well let's bring in guest number two I can see him sitting there nervously trying to look cool it's the grandfather of cheese there Mick Jagger occurred Jamie Montgomery hey Jamie all right thank you so you are in you're in South Cadbury right now yeah living so scary will make the trees in North Carroll is about a mile away I know you well obviously and the a303 goes right between the two like a croquet ball in through the hoop isn't it yeah absolutely this is completely in our I'm not wrong he said that your brother Archie has a habit of building little tattoos out of straw bales yeah yeah got any straw know you've got something worth building I think the last big one was with Kate wills wedding which is going back a bit we've got a complete Buckingham Palace wherever and with all of the Royals waving and hand waving on the side of the road it was nothing to do with us yes other straw statues are available so if people know the 303 that is where one of the greatest cheddar is one of the greatest cheese's in the UK gets its mate now let's just bring in the fantastic Tracy who keeps us on the straight and narrow Tracy you there tonight narrow tonight Charlie I'm sorry for the British cheese weekender you up in the one holding court so so catch us up with what's going on okay so day two of the British TVs weekend - it's all been going really well it's been awesome absolutely awesome excuse me privileged we're part of this amazing to meet cheese community in okay and all of our cheese experts from all from Scotland to Northern Ireland to Wales have all contributed and hope that climate for free to deliver free master classes across the Friday Saturday and Sunday of the bank holiday weekend in a mission to support small cheese makers had to brining British peas during the lockdown and Beyond and Beyond and beyond so this is this is the brainchild of Pat McGregor is that right yeah sure so Patrick and I were inspired by Tuesday night is cheese night really I think so we well you and I start at the Tuesday night is cheese right because we were really missing our Academy master courses when we get loads of our cheese community together I'm interrupting you from Amy Hancock there he's so dreamy hello the Godfather of cheese on this occasion is really brought the British cheese we came to being and when I say he's done it like at short notice with Tracy I mean we're talking this is two weeks ago or three weeks ago you it's probably about three and a half weeks ago Patrick faux means a talk should we do what about if you know we support the British cheese makers and do we normally have London cheese month and we have loads of different things going on with that and create some press and and get the public in and he said to me it'd be like three or four master classes a day well we twelve every half hour on the brilliant let me tell you by the for maps tonight we actually have you on 30 minutes 35 minutes of we're taking any questions that anybody's got out there and it might be the obscure it might be the obvious but we have the answer or at least we think we do so bring on the questions train receive you got your little Bell Bell it's in the other room I've removed rooms because there was a massive thunderstorm here just now so I haven't got the Bell but I'll just wait that Nick who's Sarah queen of cheese Peterson loving the title Sarah and liking queen of cheese bring on she's one of the fold I love queen of cheese bringing out the Lincolnshire we've go Tracy is a human toil patches back okay now we're gonna stop are you saying that we've got everyone all the people here are going myself Ruth Jamie and Trek you all brought a cheese not unless they're our favorite cheese but cheese that we want to just chat about so Ruth do want to stop at a nice easy question what cheese is on your plate in front of you okay so I have dots and Jude and stickleton so you'll know as a cheese monger you can't have favorites you can have maybe twenty or thirty favorites but you can't have favorites it's too hard there's so many amazing cheese's so I thought I'd bring cheeses that meant something to me so I've got six Alton and the reason I've got stitch Wilton is that the guy who makes this alternative you all know Josh Schneider is the reason that I work in cheese he gave me my first cheese job where am I yeah when I when I I moved from London to the countryside when I got married my husband was setting up an organic market garden I didn't know what to do with myself and Joe lived a couple of doors down said that why you're trying to decide what to do with your life come and help me I need a pair of hands helping big T's so I went to help donate two months and fell in love with cheese I mean I I like Eddie but I never really thought you could make a career out of it making cheese as any cheese nicob although is extremely hard work and we were making a channel so it was very very physically hard work and Joe will tell you that I ended up and it was just so I moved into buying and selling cheese because you get all the fun of trying all the different cheeses and getting to know all the different people and there's just a lot of fun with you making cheese I made cheese with a lady called Francis wood Allenwood donorship I hope I might say this on air but she's mad as a box of frogs no extraordinary the one thing I learned let's sell cheese that's gotta be easy because if I were to be a cheese maker again that would be the cheese I would like to make so it's what kind of my favorites but it's just the one that I kind of feel a real affinity with in actual making of it not great you can see it's little freaky it's delicate so those are my cheeses cold Jamie what have you got because it's it's basically mostly nearly always all I have in the fridge I have our cheddar and I have our ogle shield which I'd like to tell our wonderful viewers that I've been to suffer in Jamie's house several times and it's got a point where this lovely wife Z is kind of likes it when someone brings another change into the house Jenna there yeah sure I've got a question for Jamie though well he's well he's in that he's in the zone so Kevin is asking him what rennet do you use um you may not want her neck the next one where'd you get it let me decide yeah great question we if if we represent anything given it the same business doing exactly the same thing that my grandfather did we continues to use calf rennet because I believe it just does give us a better flavor it comes it's a Danish company that make it I believe most of it comes from New Zealand but that is what my grandfather would have done for certain still used enormous Lee all across France and because we are probably the most traditional of all the traditional generators I feel it's it's quite important to hang on to the really the deep of fundamental things that my grandfather would have done especially things where we all do actually know it does make a difference definitely you you see a lot of cheesemakers a people see those most amusing our friend are they are they using vegetarian venison one form another I would say most cheese makers use vegetarian rennet but a lot of the very very good cheese makers use animal rennet um now that's making judgments which you know tricky I know but I think a lot of people use vegetarian rennet as a commercial decision it means it opens their cheese up to more markets and a lot of people don't feel it makes a difference but I know a lot of people passionately do believe it makes a difference and they really do produce animal rennet it was a very interesting case of Bill Stansfield was now yes he was using vegetarian very successful but when he moved up to car Fredette he then won these awards within I think you know or maybe three because there's still a big market out there so he was doing both but we were going to be the animal in it because it's it's quite rare that you get to do that same tasting of theory the same keys one with vegetable rennet vegetarian one with them and although in Phil's case the corniche me with M were and it was definitely it it was better it was deeper it was richer it was more biscuit to you there was really good flavors going on in there that you didn't get with younger in it sorry I mean the number a few years ago when the special cheese makers Association did there's Stilton visit to the whole area my memory of the of the dinner was a tasting the Randolph got done of Maine Kings Casa Bassett with animal rennet we all tasted it we all went Wow okay Randolph Randolph Hudson the founder of Neal's Yard dairy for those who don't know and I'd like to add there it's good that you do have one memory of that dinner Jamie having seen in the dinner are you are you familiar were any British cheese maker using the the cardoon or the vegetable the fissile rennet well Mary Holbrook used to use a really traditional and kadu for her cheese Carter but there's also people using slightly more refined versions I wish they you can so you don't you know actually buying the stainless and circling yourself you can buy the sort of the powdered and yes there's Synod and he'll I Norton an arrow which is a really stunning cheese and also Charlie I started doing that as well because I asked you one of the most innovative cheese makers who are the new New Kids on the Block and you mentioned ordinance just near Oxford and they started making cheese 2014 they're not very long ago they just made a big lifestyle decision to change what they were doing by a couple of goats and started making raw milk cheeses their first one was Synod in Hill and they're building up their own goat earth and meanwhile buying milk in as well so they're trying to sort of increase the reach they with their milk milk all the time and they're getting higher and higher now I think they've got about 100 goats now and they started with you know five or six and and they've had two children along the way as well so they're very very busy busy life cheese maker and keeping your own animals I'm sure that does bring us to the subject of raw milk I mean Jamie you've been using unpassed milk from the get-go for 115 years or whatever it is you've been making cheese now absolutely yeah yeah so if it ain't broke we'll try not to fix it we are lucky making each other clearly it's it's it's the most bomb-proof though in terms of safety wise all the cheese's so the soft cheese guys anybody doing that with with raw milk I take my hat off to them we're doing it with the ogle shield which is a little bit it just takes a bit more testing just just to be more more for that within the job all the time but we can keep it pretty good I mean managing raw milk is about managing bacteria numbers sort of counts and that kind of thing just explain that to people so they understand how about you are basically trying to control chaos well I keep going back to really the fact that if all know it was steroid or there wouldn't be any point in using raw milk so you're right we are controlling we're trying to manage the chaos but we want a load of chaos but what we don't want is anything in there that's got in there from not really the cow most of the stuff that's inside the other or a cow is is is pretty good it's that it's mostly the stuff that gets in later that causes our struggle and so so managing that chaos though we we want flavors from the milk it's what gives complexity to our cheese's and so we want our teas that contain lots and lots of lactobacilli which live inside the udder all the sort of bugs which give us great flavors and our milks are full of those sorts of perks and we've we've done trials and looking at how many different types are bacteria in the milk and we love the fact that there's lots of different ones but keeping up keeping it caps on the ones that aren't supposed to be there that's our job but I kind of think you're harnessing it you know control it bringing it in and developing it on that's that's the goal isn't it I'm a huge fan of raw milk but I think that there are so many avenues to bring flavor and cheese sometimes I I think that it's over emphasized you know shailen thing kids Jamie in his store has had a hundred years of cheese making cheese come through that sword every day something adds to the biome that sits there the yeasts and the molds and the cool stuff which means if you take one of Tom calvess cheeses and put it in any store it's gonna taste different it's it's not there's there's a lot that you're harnessing that fantastic biological activity that isn't just coming from the raw milk and I think that maybe it's the fact that it has this hint of danger if I can put it that way which we all love and that has brought attention to the raw milk element of cheese making and in my tween Jamie you bored me senseless about the importance of the feed you give your cows to bring flavor into cheese only bore senseless on the fact that we don't really know people ask me what easier buy your farm or what you do that makes Montgomery cheddar so special and my answer is I really have no idea I don't know the answer to their question and so every time if we change something it's got to be very very very slightly and we will be watched really carefully to see whether it makes a difference and there are lots of themes which I will simply not feed to my cows and protect it fast being sort of the one that springs to mind so anybody who's driving cows to produce lots and lots of milk the most concentrated form of energy you can give them and all that all the really big sort of industrial farms will be feeling protected fat but that fat almost without being digested almost ghosts stay into the milk and so your your milk finishes up with this stuff in it which isn't really metabolized by the car protective fat it's a pearl so it's a it's generally palm oil and they put a coating of protein around it to stop the car from so I guess direct to the car no it's industrial farming and so there are lots of things there's certain things like that which I will not do because I can see that that is going to affect the teeth know that thing about being as traditional as we can possibly be that goes right through to though to the type of thing that we're going to feed the cows as well so so your your family motto is just as you said don't fix it if it ain't broken well don't make any changes questions here for our viewers as well Jamie for you that's a good question so when you carried on making cheese during the war years or the family they do what did they change anything then or you just they carried on with the same recipe the same week off banking you know but you are you're right in dimensioning the wall because we have to stop so we we were stopped all the way through rationing no no no that's when that's when cheddar making just completely crashed in something like was it just under 400 cheese makers just before the war Hahnemann chair chair makers well in Somerset it was it was going each other and because there wasn't any market for the milk nobody was coming this far down to Southwest take it up to London how would they do that and so but after the war not Marketing Board existed you only make cheese before because you you had all this milk that you'd have to do something with so suddenly you have a choice and so it was only the slightly I mean you talked before about miles above the frost I fundamentally believe that most of the cheddar most of the cheese makers I know are just a little bit mad and thank God my father was my grandfather was we made made cheese maybe nine years the gap but he could remember how well they were doing before and he knew exactly what he wanted to go back to doing yeah there was a gap but he was passionate about making it exactly the same way as they did before we've got a prolonged our training partner in Ireland in Southern Ireland she's asking do you export to Southern Ireland we don't handle any export ourselves everything exported all the Montgomerys exported is goes through near a dairy Sheridan was used to buy direct from and so I would I'm not sure where the Sheridan's are still getting some from Hillsdale enough okay so she needs to talk to meals you out there yeah and then at least is quite an in-depth question from an anonymous maybe this was once the roof he and veggie rennet in going animal rennet well sue it produces chymosin which is a it's you know it's created in the laboratory and it does the same job if Jamie do you know if heinessen is exactly the same enzyme that's produced in an animal in I don't know if it's exactly the same but it's certainly similar and just does the same thing so without more in a little it will be from the stomach of the car that hasn't been weaned yet so it's only ever consuming milk so it has to break down milk so with animal rennet that's the enzyme that's inside stomach and then with the laboratory need and it they've just mesh it great the same enzyme within the laboratory environment thank you do you need a couple more questions or we sorry noticed somebody asking where the flavor comes from in pasteurized cheese because I do think it's important to say that there are incredibly brilliant pasteurized cheese's I wouldn't deny that so you know your costume asset and your tongue worth and your role right will pasteurized cheeses and their breathing so I think the quality of the cheese is very dependent on the skill of the cheese maker and on the choices that they make you know they're they're having to choose what starts cultures to put in the little to create their cheese and then they're making the countless decisions at every point you know when you cut how small do you cut and you drain so there's so many decisions that have to be made when you're making change that will affect the outcome and people can make a bad raw milk cheese and people can make a brilliant pasteurized cheese no it's unlikely what I think rumor is it's a bold choice like Daley said if you're making a soft cheese or a blue cheese it's a very bold choice to do that so that makes me interested and makes me want to try it because the Touareg obviously got some faith in what they're doing so then I want to try it and see what its load I lean it on this um I think that raw milk really has the biggest impact in law-keeping cheese's I think the like shedders is where it's at and I and the reason I think that is that while those young cheeses are very difficult to make and really challenging in lots of ways there are so many other at flavor influences at that age I think that you can and think you've got to control that it's not it's not as important if I would say what's the most important place to preserve raw milk I think it's in the Cheddar's I think it's in the grits I think the gestures I think Danny Green you don't agree I think there's there's a huge difference between those cheeses which rely on the milk for the most of their flavor and there's a whole lot of Jesus where the things that we do to it the conditions we keep it in influence to flavor so much that it is less important I think oval shoe is a really good example of that we make a lot of pasteurized oval shield because it makes it just a lot easier to export and I don't think there is as much difference between the prostrates and unpasteurized over shield as there would be in cheese's which are not washed for instance washing the rind of a cheese it's made from Jersey anyway so it's much premiere yeah we only given for three months we're not we're not looking for a lot of flavor inside the cheese other than the creaminess which is there anyway and then we go washing it and so we've got all that lovely pungency that we can create whether it's pasteurized or not and that goes into the cheese and so that's that's the argument for me if you're if you're gonna do loss to it and give it loads of flavor elsewhere then I don't think pasteurizes is as important and Patrick is asking well the challenge is now you're talking about Oakenshield and the jersey cow's milk is there challenges with making cheese with the doors and milk absolutely dirty milk is just wanting to go bitter and it's just one of those things my mom always used to say you can't make cheese from Jersey Jersey milk she knew that if you if you treat it badly it will go better and we do know we do find if we keep it too long it will start going bitter under the rind and bitterness is I mean it's it's a pet hate for me business anyway because in cheddar if I come across bitterness in cheddar I go no just just no I mean she'll particularly bitterness is always tends to be the last flavor you taste so the links that we keep celebrating in in the cheddar if I've got business there I can't get rid of it and so bitterness is is bad and Jersey Milk wants to be bitter so what the hell i doing mum loved her Jersey cows we have a perv Jersey cows we've got to do something and we've been mad enough to try we're very happy with it another question this might be quite nice poem to read that's delay Oh Louis asked do you have any recommendation for enjoying cheese in seasons you know by season which well uses that are seasonal but not very many of them so you know we all know that use of your veteran wanderer Christmas and for me the seasonal thing yes the cheese's vary throughout seasons I think it affects me more as in what I want to eat so in spring I really want to eat those lactic cheese's the lovely bright fresh Jesus where it's in winter I love a good old inky strong washed rind so for me it's more about you know it's warm I want a lovely fresh cheese and when it's cold I was a lovely party savory meat et and but obviously cheese's vary a lot throughout the season you might think that that's quite complicated to sort of try and explain the variations and what happens for the milk and yeah so for me it's just about what I want to eat really we did some research recently with the Academy on Cheshire and there was quite a lot of writing about the meadows that ran alongside the rivers up in those areas where they were drawing their milk from and those Meadows were really inaccessible in the summer so they did have summer cheeses in the way that the Europeans are now and the cheese is melted we don't experience that anymore as we've got good drainage and agricultural improvements and all that kind of thing so we went to have theatres or all 12 months when we're missing out on those on those season ality different as it is you know in the Swiss Alps if you go up when you have the cheeses that are made just from the summer milk and they're up in the high mountains with all the wildflowers and then they come down in the winter it's it's a bigger change than what we have in some ways however I mean when they go out drugs in a communal grass that makes a big difference to the cheesemaker doesn't it that's a really tricky time in both addition I'm sure you find that Jamie when you're going through that transition period of what the cows are eating but it's sort of more a difficult period isn't it in a way yes the transition is the problem and I guess the challenge for us has always been trying to try to maintain that complexity of diet to the cow in the winter and so making good grass silage and keeping that as a good part of the diet is the only way we can we can hope to to maintain it and there will be people who say that well you know if we wanted to make the greatest cheese we would be feeding hay or winter but if we did that we would lose a lot of color in the milk because he tends to tends to be much paler in the in the cream and frankly we all would make most years we would make terrible hay which is which is my mother my mother was asked by Italian he came over to check what we were doing and and he asked did we make good hay yeah yeah no will we will make cheeses that I find disgusting hopefully not much more than three or four year but if we're not making some terrible cheese I firmly believe we're not trying hard enough if we're using raw milk we as I said before we want that kr every now and then that chaos is just gonna get out of our control and and I've got to live with that and and the industrials go to great lengths to make sure they never make a bad cheese that's not my thing at all I I think the only way we're ever going to make great cheese is by occasionally making a bad one I find that really interesting because that really suggests that in the balance between art and science you're an artist we just have no idea yeah you're right yes it's it's it's try and treat cows right and and and hope that it works yeah how much is annoyed me if it annoys me enough I have been known to to come up with creative ways of getting my aim back on it we can find out what exactly Jamie does he clearly gets his wick we'll see what we find yes okay breathy do you find this with other cheese makers is that the more they reach for the skies the more occasionally they trip Tigers newsmakers yeah I think that's I think that's true because if you're looking for standardization and consistency then you can do it you know you can make a case that's fine that's okay and it'll be fine the next we cannot be finally after but if you're going to try and make excuse that's incredible that's not easy so there will always be time when it's not quite so good and cheesemonger I think you have to be quite since chips and unfriending so sometimes the cheese just isn't good enough to come to us and it doesn't come to us you know not sure what happens then the cheese it does come to us it will change you know sometimes now let's say a soft cheese sometimes they'll be a little bit of problems with the ride maybe it's a little bit over reactive maybe this a little bit of slippage if it's not too much if it's manageable and if we can explain it to our customers so that they know what they're getting so they're not you know disappointed I think that's fine you know you're you're getting something amazing sometimes it's incredible and sometimes it's good it's never bad you know the bad stuff doesn't reach us we're going for this one like we are this it's like um do you think that climate change is going to affect our cheese-making here in the UK yes that's my first thought would be if we finished up with a much more Mediterranean climate we might finish up making a lot more hay and that and that that would affect what we can make I doubled at making a sort of dry air type cheese and we rediscovered attrition rate on that was something like 50% of it blew up like footballs and I see another question there about blowing in in cheese which is tends to sort of be the story with with silage we have had but shadow is different has 100 or so years being made with silage and I suppose the fan of this cloth band we put we won the reason we cloth behind it a cheddar it's because we want it to breathe and so if we get a bit of gassing going on inside it it's gonna be bad before it actually blows up the old girl shield on the other hand if we get the wrong bacteria in there it will go like footballs and we've we've seen that and we were able to trace that straight back to the management of the silage pit and bad stylish yeah it's bad news but then sounds bad so if we were to get processor miss Jenny remember that hottest that very hot summer you had a couple of years ago did you end up with not enough pasture for your cows in the summer when the grass was so dry we were okay maybe that's why shadow Mason was in Somerset we've got west facing if there's any way at all about it'll we'll catch it yeah yeah yeah and we we we don't absolutely rely on on on grasses are only for each either I do grow a bit amazed and so in a year where we get a bit less grass amazed as well so we're trying to manage our way through that if we if we are going to get drier summers and we can we can we can sort of match it by growing something that lands the dry okay being dry we've got another question here and what's your favorite beverage now this is a leading Crescent Jamie because you happen to be drinking something tonight that is one of my favorites so but dip into Jamie deck sorry we know what you're drinking I well you know that if you're eating lots of different cheeses it can get a bit complicated what you drink because different things very different things so I've gone I've gone just fairly simple a nice white lovely chilled white but she gone for an Austrian so it's quite sort of flavored and floral and peachy so really it's gonna go with lactic subdued it's also gonna work with gluten because I don't think would work with subdued and really sort of lovely crisp white wouldn't work with the UM sort of floral white front of you what Jamie was saying earlier raw milk Stilton if we're allowed to say that out loud Stilton ease whatever the phrase is methods tells me that the chaos that we've been referring to bring that in with raw milk and you know like not allowed to call it Stilton just send out that second time just in case everyone scuse me that is an example of a veggies that really goes like that and when it's on song yeah no absolutely you know it can be totally sublime it's a challenge so it's not you know it's not an easy day at the office every day for German he goes in because it's a challenge you've got to keep your wits about you and this is your thing about art and science there's a lot of instinctive Ness I think there's done a huge amount of research as well to really understand his milk and understand the process of making the cheese but yeah it's it's volatile but it's stunning I bought this a while back it's a it's a longer dock pickle and I've slightly fall in love with it I don't really like acidic wines but this has got a really like lime in this which is not my favorite flavors and absolutely not nipped um but the Chinese I'm having today is that pasteurized cheese oh cool okay you guys will get that straight away polish care Catherine Mead recent invention like if she kicked off his 2013 making this but this is a washed curved Chiefs it sort of kind of like a grandchild of powder although that's not fair and it won the world choose awards in 2017 so this was a proper zero to hero cheese and she had problems of blowing Jamie do you remember this yeah so she had silage issue that blew up in the tree and she had to go back to drawing board and remake her cheese but when you are starting in you cheese that's what great Cheatwood cheese makers do they work with the seasons they work with mother and and they overcome and they overcome and they achieve and she really very much cheap now there's a question down there about what is Sun it's just in case familiar people are with silage it's fermented grass that is carried over from the grass going times of August and July into into the winter to be fed to cows and it's either wrapped in I don't know if you've seen them in that can feels people started using pink to wrap their silage bales big pink balls in the middle of fields black is the traditional color but Jamie was saying that you use silage clamps Tony so yes yes we especially for making trees we would always only feed clamps I did something that we put into a concrete sided bunker and we can drive tractors over it to squeeze or as much of the air out as we possibly can because cloud stylish you can can get the acidity much better and much quicker than in a bale silage and seen you tend to get a bit of Listeria in bales stylish certainly when we feed we we do make bail starters for the carbs and week and they can get Listeria in their eyes there's a disease and and so they're they're picking that up from this because it doesn't pickle quite as well as in the bales so everyone's clear about this we're using back here again to break down and yeah so the bacteria for I do have some acid let's go back to what you're drinking gimme because this is one of my favorite all-time drinks made in the UK well it's not actually made by us but it contains some of our apples so on the farm here we have cider apples nobody you can read that it's all looks a bit sort of it's called Pomona and it's made by a Somerset cider company and it's they they they make a brandy and so they make this in the same way as they would make a port and so it's not cider which is all fermented they take a selected apple juice and mix the fresh out of these the the pure spirit with it and then put it in oak barrels for three years and so it comes out much more like a port it retains the a plainness with a nice bit of alcohol heat and the age sort of smooth it right out and so it's really really room temperature because I've drank that with cheese when we've been camping chilled and it's beautiful well it's completely different when it's chilled yeah no no no no you don't chill pomona you take one Kingston black you chill the Kingston black you kill the Kings a baby chill the kimono you sediment eyes out the Apple and you get that sediment down the bottom sometimes when you're camping you have no choice it is chilled on that argumentative note about something other than cheese any final questions before we sign off tonight there was quite interesting what is going on what you're drinking is there there's a guy called Stuart and he's asking is there any cheese that we'd recommend to drink with chai just I I don't know why you think I might be an expert in this particular subject you have two options with shots in my opinion go very old or very young okay go the freshness of a really good ghost cheese or something really think just breaks through a shot and it sort of tags on it but by the time you're in two shots Stewart let's be honest it's probably late your taste buds are on the fourth round of the track and you need a brutal stir the veggies to break through so if you can get all the many Jamie's 24 months or some I was drawing actually a pause probably is the good to go but some of those wonders big punch big numbers that's where you gotta go and and just laugh a lot and liberally throw it anywhere be still standing with you and drink too many shots and generally celebrate good cheese and good friends and good wine and you know bring on basically that was a bit of a sorry it is yes thank you very much for that love question I'd like to thank all of our lovely guests Rose thank you very much coming on your Pedic thank you to all your families for letting new scale at up until 9 o'clock on a sample merging its once alright Jamie thank you for joining us and Tracy your company is always keeping us on straight in there and but most of all thank you to all the people who are watching listening enjoying the love of cheese keep supporting old small cheese makers keep learning more about cheese but most of all have fun on a Saturday night so